On the Question of How Talismans Interact with Natal Charts

One question we frequently field, especially around collection release times, is whether a particular talisman will interact favorably or negatively with a particular person’s natal chart.

Often, the question concerns whether a person with a natally afflicted planet—for example a planet that is retrograde, combust, or in a sign of detriment or fall—should avoid talismans of that planet. Sometimes people also ask whether a talisman of a placement they have natally will be helpful or will be “too much of a good thing.” And various other questions can be asked as well.

As a disclaimer, we note that although we focus here on source texts and historical evidence, this is not to dismiss or invalidate individual experience. As we state below, we have seen and experienced various indications that talismans interact with transits and natal charts to some degree. However, since the reports are quite varied and often quite individual, we offer this piece as a resource for thinking more broadly about the topic and to provide general guidance. Nothing written below should be understood as a challenge to or refutation of any individual’s practice or experience.

In this post we draw upon the evidence and theory we have in available source texts of the tradition to speak to these questions and provide some context for thinking about them. If you want to skip over the theory and history and get at the more practical takeaways, feel free to jump down to our summary of traditional sources on this topic or to our advice on and conclusions about talisman-natal chart interactions.

Traditional Source Texts on the Topic of Natal Charts

It may come as a surprise to modern readers, but sources we have received in English translation in the tradition of astrological magic have relatively little to say about the natal charts of humans interacting with talismans. Some texts contain few references to natal charts whatsoever, let alone advice on evaluating the synastry of a talismanic election chart and a natal chart, and other texts contain only relatively narrow considerations relevant to the issue.

So as to not bury the lede, we can say at the outset that there is no evidence that we are aware of in the extant English-language astrological magic texts that offers any kind of nuanced or complex evaluation of the natal chart of talisman bearers. We shall return to this point below, but first, let us examine what our sources have to say.

Thabit Ibn Qurra’s De Imaginibus

De Imaginibus, which primarily concerns house-based talismans that use a fairly distinct set of electional rules that differs significantly from those of planetary and fixed star talismans (for example), contains the most direct instructions related to the natal chart of a talisman’s intended recipient.

One of the more involved recipes involves an intention to return lost or stolen wealth from one person to another:

“When you wish to make an image for a man who seeks wealth that was stolen or taken away from him or denied him or contested in some other way, and you wish it to be returned to him, make for him an image of gold, silver, copper, or whatever substance you wish. Begin this beneath the ascendant of a horary chart you have cast for him, and have the lord of the house of wealth joined to the lord of the ascendant, [etc.]”
—De Imaginibus, Chapter 3 (tr. John Michael Greer)

The passage continues on, saying to create a second image (i.e., talisman) representing the person “who currently has the wealth in question,” with “the significator of the querent joined with the significator of the second image.”

Several other talismans in De Imaginibus contain related, slightly simpler instructions, a representative example of which is, “You should begin this [operation] under the ascendant of [the recipient’s] nativity, if you know it, or under the ascendant of a horary chart cast for [them]” (ibid, Chapter 4).

In general, De Imaginibus leans fairly heavily on this particular method of rooting the chart of the talisman in the ascendant of the talisman bearer.

Maslama al-Qurtubi’s Picatrix

In our investigations, we have found that the translation of the Latin version of Maslama al-Qurtubi’s Picatrix contains only a handful of passages concerning natal charts (usually referred to as a person’s nativity in the Greer & Warnock translation). The majority of these passages actually concern the natal chart of the mage (that is, the one who crafts the talisman) rather than the bearer of astrological talismans.

Let us first examine these passages about the nativity of the mage.

First, at the tail end of a short section of the Picatrix that provides concise, essential instructions for talismanic workings, Maslama al-Qurtubi writes, “It should be noted that the aforesaid [talismanic] workings were more certain if the planet was strong in the natal chart of those people who performed the working” (Book I, Chapter 6, tr. Greer & Warnock).

Second, in the context of enumerating foundational concepts that one “must first learn and understand” in order to be successful in talismanic workings, al-Qurtubi writes, “Furthermore, if the planet[ary signifier of the talismanic election] is the dispositor of the nativity of the magician, or the almuten ruling it, your work will be even more complete” (Book III, Chapter 5, tr. Greer & Warnock).

Finally, in a list of aphorisms that the author attributes to the pseudo-Aristotelian Secretum Secretorum or Sirr al-Asrar, he writes: “Your petition will be quickly fulfilled if the planet to which you make your petition is the lord of your nativity; without this, it will be harder for your petition to proceed to its proper conclusion” (Book IV, Chapter 4, tr. Greer & Warnock).

These three passages basically suggest that stronger planets in the mage’s natal chart lead to stronger astrological magic, and, in at least one of the passages, vice versa.

So far as we are aware, however, only a single passage in Picatrix (relevant to the strength and/or effects of a talisman) concerns the natal chart of a person other than the mage. The passage occurs in Book III, Chapter 5 in the middle of a paragraph describing various ways to make the image of a talisman correspond to its intended effects. The relevant passage reads as follows:

“If you wish someone to be obedient to your desire and not disobey your precepts, make the [talisman] out of a stone that is of a nature appropriate to the planet that has great power in the radix of [that person’s] nativity and in [their] ascendant. Make that image in the hour of the same planet, and the planet that is dominant in the nativity should not be opposing, or in the same sign as, or in any aspect to, any planet of a nature contrary to it.”
—Maslama al-Qurtubi, Picatrix, Book III, Chapter 5 (tr. Greer & Warnock)

Two things are worth emphasizing about this passage. First, even this quotation does not concern the bearer of the talisman, but rather the person on whom one intends their talisman to have an effect. Second, several planetary talisman recipes exist—particularly the rings of the planets described in Book II, Chapter 10 of Picatrix—which essentially serve to make the bearer of the talisman more dignified within the hierarchy of the planet, and to have influence or lordship over other beings ruled by that planet. The quoted passage seems to be in line with such talismanic recipes: to have influence over a particular person, make yourself a talisman that grants you dignity with the planetary hierarchy that has the most influence over that person.

De Quindecim Stellis, aka Hermes on the 15 Stars

Our primary source text on fixed stars and its variants have relatively little to say on the topic. Although mundane and natal considerations are given for the 15 Behenian fixed stars, the magical considerations are entirely separate (and often, wildly at odds) with these significations. Very few electional instructions are given for celestial bodies beyond the Moon and the pertinent fixed star, and none of these concern any person’s natal chart, whether specifically or in general.

Marsilio Ficino’s Three Books on Life

Written about 500 years after Picatrix, Ficino’s Three Books on Life contains one thought-provoking passage relative to this issue:

“[O]ur advice to increase the influence of the Sun, of Jupiter, or of Venus, we understand as a general rule, not, however, for that patient in whose horoscope one of these planets appeared as a Signifier of death.”
—Three Books on Life, Book III, Ch. XIV (tr. Kaske & Clark)

Ficino, who was trained as a doctor before he entered the priesthood, makes it quite apparent in his Three Books on Life that he prefers ‘medicines’ (or confections, which often get called ‘materia’ or ‘talismanic materia’ in contemporary times) over talismans (which he called ‘images’). Medicines were typically crafted from plant and animal materials using astrological timing, and were intended to be applied to or consumed by the patient.

Ficino seems to be telling us that for people with a particularly grievous placement, talismans of that planet are probably not the best medicine even if in general those talismans are quite positive. We do note, however, that Ficino is not talking generally about any planet that happens to be afflicted, but specifically about planets that signify death in the nativity. How he determined or thought about this is not made clear in the text; nor are the consequences he observed or imagined of coming into relationship with a talisman of such a planet. We do highlight that Ficino does not issue a strong warning against doing so. Rather, his advice is more mild: he simply does not recommend such talismans.

It is also notable that this sentence appears essentially on its own without any further exposition or context (indeed, it is the final sentence in the chapter in which it appears). Thus, he does not offer any nuances about synastry of charts, or secondary placements of the talisman chart (i.e., planets that are not the signifier of the electional chart). His advice is simply about the nature of the talisman.

On the other side of things, Ficino also encouraged people to seek out gifts from planets that are strong and positive in a person’s nativity:

“The specific rule for an individual would be to investigate which star promised what good to the individual at his nativity, [and] to beg grace from that star rather than from another”
—Marsilio Ficino, Three Books on Life, Book III, Chapter III (tr. Kaske & Clark)

Thus, Ficino encourages would-be talisman bearers to reinforce positive, life-affirming planets in their charts with talismans of those same planetary natures. Notice, however, that here too, the focus is simply on the nature of the talisman, not on any technical evaluation of the chart of the talisman compared with the natal chart of the person considering coming into relationship with it.

Summary of Traditional Astrological Magic Sources on the Topic of Natal Charts

Four main points can be summarized from the four source texts we have investigated:

First, from De Imaginibus, there is a tradition of rooting talisman charts in the ascendant of a person’s nativity. Although this technique was developed specifically for house-based talismans, we might speculate that a talisman that shares the ascendant of a particular person may more strongly resonate with that person.

Second, from Ficino’s Three Books on Life, we have some evidence that talismans should be avoided that are of the nature of particularly noxious placements (Ficino speaks specifically of ones that signify death) in a nativity, and that talismans should be approached that are of the nature of particularly good planets in a nativity.

Third, from Picatrix, strong or weak placements in the mage’s natal chart can have an impact on the power of a talisman.

Fourth, aside from these three points, there is little documented in the extant tradition of astrological magic as we have received it so far tying the effects of a talisman to placements in the bearer’s nativity. There is essentially no attention paid to synastry between talisman election charts and natal charts.

What to Make of the Relative Silence in the Tradition

So, from what we can discern, key works in the tradition paid virtually no heed to one of the most common questions that we receive about astrological talismans. This is obviously unfortunate, since many types of questions that people have go unanswered. Some examples (constructed creatively, not directly quoting but based on experience with real questions) include:

I’d like a talisman of Venus (or Jupiter, etc.), but Venus (or Jupiter, etc.) in my chart is retrograde / cadent / in detriment / aspecting a malefic planet / etc., will that be okay?
I’d like a talisman of (say) Saturn in Aquarius, but Aquarius is my 6th/8th/12th house, will that be dangerous?
A malefic planet in the talisman chart (but not the significator) is on my AC / MC / IC, will that lead to problems?
One of the angles / planets in the talisman chart is on/aspecting a planet in my natal chart, is that okay?
My natal Jupiter is in Cancer (for example), will a Jupiter in Cancer talisman have a positive effect for me or will it be “too much of a good thing”?

Such questions can get quite nuanced, but the basic motivation is to try to determine whether and how well a talisman will work out or jive with oneself before committing.

Unfortunately, if we root ourselves firmly within the source texts of the tradition, the general answer has to be: we just don’t know. Only a single caution exists that we have come across—namely, Ficino’s discouragement of talismans for planets that are “Signifier[s] of death” in a nativity—and it seems to largely be an afterthought. In other sources, the issue simply does not arise at all. We can infer that in all likelihood, such questions either were not considered, or were not considered to be a significant enough issue to write about.

It is also worth emphasizing that the tradition of astrological magic is predicated on the idea that these wondrous vessels of celestial spirits can—whether subtly or more overtly—alter our fate. As one of the aphorisms in Picatrix states, “Spirits have the power to strengthen the effects of a planet and ameliorate its qualities, or to the contrary, to lessen and worsen its effects and scatter its powers” (Book IV, Chapter 4, tr. Greer & Warnock). When the focus is on transcending fate, concerning oneself with one’s own fated nativity in relationship to a talisman may have been seen as inconsequential or even counterproductive.

Coping with Uncertainty

Christopher Warnock, in some of his writings, has made the excellent point that contemporary natal astrology differs fairly significantly from medieval and Renaissance horary and magical electional astrology. In modern natal astrology, he has pointed out that, by and large, every celestial body is considered simultaneously and in concert. In medieval magical elections (taking planetary talismans as our paradigm case), however, the focus is on isolating and magnifying the effects of a single planet to the greatest extent possible. The basic assumptions are different, the goals are different, and the methods of evaluating charts are different.

This can be confusing for anybody, and to own our part in that, we may add to the confusion somewhat when we emphasize our relational perspective. “Relational” in astrology may naturally lead people to think “synastry.” But usually, the best way to get to know a person (whether human or non) is to interact with them. Synastry can be interesting and potentially valuable, but it can also serve as a way to pre-judge or intellectualize, and thereby get further away from genuine relatedness.

We can also offer the following more speculative way of thinking about this. Synastry, in effect, shows what sorts of timing considerations “click” or go together for two people. For talismans, however, while there does seem to be some indication that talismans participate in transits (i.e., the way we experience talismans does seem to interact with transits), the spirits of talismans themselves are either outside of or constitutive of time. Talismans to some degree “freeze” or crystallize a moment in time, and radiate the powers of that moment in time. Given that they do not experience and are not beholden to timing in the same way that we finite beings are, techniques such as synastry may not be as illuminating when applied to beings that exist in a very different way than we do.

In many cases, we also note that questions about talisman-natal chart synastry arise out of anxiety, uncertainty about how resourced one is to take on a new talismanic relationship, lack of knowledge about talismans and the worldview of astrological magic, perfectionism about one’s ability/capacity to relate to spirits, or other concerns. Bringing curiosity and discernment to what is driving one’s question can always be useful, because it can help bring to light any underlying anxieties and uncertainties that can perhaps benefit from being addressed in a more direct manner.

It is entirely understandable that someone might lean on astrological considerations to shore up uncertainty or perceived lack of fluency with developing spirit relationships. Ultimately, while such tools may offer some guidance and support, at the end of the day, synastry can never substitute for the vital lived reality of mutual spirit contact and dialogue.

Our Advice on and Conclusions About Talisman-Natal Chart Interactions

In our experience to date with astrological talismans, we can also say that although we cannot and definitely do not dismiss the idea of talisman chart / natal chart interactions and synastry, the testimony we have seen and heard on the topic seems mixed, variable, and inconclusive.

One reason for this may be that talismans are celestially alive, and the spirits (ruhaniyyat) of astrological talismans to one degree or another transcend our expectations and the normal ways of working within sublunary reality. Thus, although there may be some general regularities, they may not fully “play by the rules” in entirely regular and uniformly predictable ways.

Another reason may be that the sorts of people interacting with talismans are likely to also have other talismans or talismanic materia, magical and devotional and ancestral practices, and/or spirit relationships that will mediate and moderate the effects of any new talisman, making any direct synastry correlation significantly harder to discern. Relatedly, people also have highly variable timelords and timing considerations, which add a whole other layer of consideration. Such nuancing factors would make detecting regularities in talisman-natal chart synastry much more difficult to parse out in any kind of general way.

Our basic approach to advising people curious or worried about the possible interaction of a talisman with their natal chart is as follows:

Divination and other methods of spiritual discernment are always our first line recommendation for approaching questions about whether a particular talisman would be a good fit for you at this time. By far our most common answer to these questions is to encourage people to divine on it.
Remember that this was not a significant concern to the masters of this tradition as far as we know, except possibly in the particular case of house-based talismans which represented a more personalized branch of the practice. This suggests that it was perhaps seen as a minor factor in the scheme of things, and we can therefore take some encouragement to hold these issues lightly.
Generally, the most important factor to focus on in a talisman is the primary significator (i.e., the Sun for a Sun talisman, Venus for a Venus talisman, etc.), and secondarily on the Moon. So long as the talisman follows electional best practices, other placements in the talisman chart will generally carry significantly less weight relative to your own natal chart.
Well-made talismans of the nature of planets that are particularly positive and life-affirming in your chart are generally a good choice, especially for people considering their first talisman or relatively early in their astromagical journeys.
It never hurts to exercise extra caution around talismans of natal planets that are combust, in detriment or fall, conjunct the South Node, or otherwise seriously afflicted in your natal chart.
Listen to your feelings and trust your gut. Heightened anxiety, fear, urgency, or acquisitiveness should almost always be a signal that stepping back would be a good idea. Strong feelings, especially negative ones, may not necessarily be a signal that the talisman is wrong for or harmful to you per se, but may point to a lack of resourcedness to approach such a talismanic relationship at this time.
If the question about talisman-natal chart interaction arises out of an exigent, highly specific circumstance or need in your life, an astrological talisman may simply not be the best tool for the job. Other magical traditions aimed at highly personalized, immediate circumstances may provide better results than trying to maximize compatibility with a more general celestial ally such as a talisman.

All of that said, just because we cannot definitively answer many of the questions that people have around this issue by reference to source texts in the tradition does not mean that these questions are meaningless or have no answer. It simply means that our knowledge of astrological magic and talismans is limited by the information, sources, and data we have available, not to mention the complexity of the cosmos.

In closing, we would like to emphasize that our stance on the matter is not definitive, and we are open to reevaluating and changing our views in light of newly discovered/translated sources and accumulating data from practitioners and consumers. For all we know, some overlooked or as-yet unavailable (to us) source—perhaps the Epistles of the Brethren of Purity, al-Razi’s al-Sirr al-Maktum, or even some passage in the Arabic Ghayat al-Hakim that did not get transcribed into the Latin Picatrix—may shed important light on the issue. For now, we must admit that little definitive can be said, much is left to speculation and anecdote, and there is likely to be significant individual variation in experiences (both between bearers of talismans and between makers of talismans).

We are always happy to field questions on this issue, and will always try to respond with appropriate humility, uncertainty, and compassion, and we encourage all to do the same.

As an addendum, we do note that while we do not offer evaluations of people’s natal charts to recommend talismans, Christopher Warnock does offer this service.

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